Why the battle for salvation is not a "competitive" tournament

In a little under two weeks, I omnipotent Black Matt, will be playing a 2000pt game against the villainous, the vile, the feminine Stelek from www.yesthetruthhurts.com
"How is it that you came to be paired against Stelek?"
Excellent question Mr fakeanonymous! I emailed Stelek several weeks ago asking him if I could buy a plane ticket for him to fly out and play in our tournament. We made a deal and the only thing it will cost him is a humiliating ass whoopin! Now, I know the internet would prefer to see Stelek play against someone more aligned in preferences to "competitive" play. Someone like Danny Internets! Most people can draw the conclusion that Danny Internets and Stelek mainly agree on what competitiveness in 40k should look like.
Now, while I mention Stelek and D.I. by name, neither really have anything to do with what I am trying to do or say here. They are just well known internet personalities, while public persona fits the stereotype I need as an example to help illustrate and anchor my point.
I, myself, love the competitiveness that comes with tournament play. I have a lot of fun traveling with my frenemys to different stores on the east coast, laying waste to friend and for alike. I have fun competing on a friendly level playing field in any of a number of arenas.
Danny Internets, my friend and regular opponent, wrote a 6 part series of articles where he makes several awesome points! Competitive play can equal fun, no one LOVES to lose, what it takes to win, and WAAC players are not competitive gamers. I agree and disagree with this last statement as I've seen through experience and deduction that the line is blurred, or at best, very thin. I endorse, like, love, wanna suck off Danny's definition of the competitive gamer. "The competitive gamer revels in an equally matched struggle and is just as happy to lose a well-played game as he is to win one." - Danny Internets
EQUALLY MATCHED, is the cream on Stelek's face;) , and the ABSOLUTE key to sustainable wholly inclusive, competitive tournament scene.
I seems like I am flaming Stelek, but I am just just disagreeing with what competitive is. When he, or anyone else including me, creates or promotes these behemoth lists that demolish qnd destroys everything across the table but slightly twisted mirror lists, it unintentionally and uncontrollably creates BITTERNESS! BITTERNESS IS DECISIVE! Devisiveness will destroy our small hobby potential! I appreciate Stelek's mission, what he is trying to do, and I think he makes great contributions to our blogosphere.

On October 8th, I am scheduled to beat on Stelek new York style with a Dual lash list. We all know that won't happen as Stelek will most likely bring a Space Wolves list that will blow me off the board. I can't beat Stelek in our grudge match, at least not with a Dual lash list. What I am comparing here, is our lists and not our ability to play 40k!
The point is, how is an event or game competitive, when our instruments of competitiveness are so uneven. The strength of a persons list is the single most predominant favouring variable when deciding a current tournaments outcome. Only when the lists are of similar strength, do other more minor factors figure into who is the victor. Don't forget luck, as she is such a beautifulbitch!
I have built a Razorwolf list in order to enforce my point with action and to stay relevant in upcoming tournaments. I.am flying Stelek out to NYC to prove or at least present a very thought out and orchestrated point. Tournaments that encourage Herculean lists with no comp, www.battleforsalvation.com are not truly competitive. On the other hand, tournaments that grossly mis-weigh composition scores, www.daboyz.Wordpress.com are equally uncompetitive! When I go to a tournament, I am looking to compete on a level playing field and THIS CANNOT BE DONE WITH LIST BUILD VARIATIONS.
"But I just go to have fun!" Please shut up with your insecurities as no one goes to a tournament to lose. Some people care much less about winning than others but NO ONE goes to lose. If I go with the objective of winning don't think I want to stick a f#@?ing needle in my eye instead of having fun. Of course I am going to have fun, they are toy soldiers.

While I lack the literary prowess to communicate everything effectively, I propose this! If anyone in the Battle for Salvation gaming club would like to be the one to play against Stelek on my dime, then in the spirit of true competitiveness, let's decide! A series of games stretched and played when able over the next week and a half. In these games, everyone will play the exact same space marine list. Everyone has them in either proxy or counts as. This will facilitate a fair and completly even playing field. The point level is inconsequential, and the army will have bite, but not enough shooting to sit back and shoot your opponent to death. It will require tactical deployment, troop advancement, counter assaults, feigning, luck, and earning your victories.
What say you, warriors of 16 sterling avenue? Just pure unfiltered hate, the way the GOD-EMPEROR intended!

50 comments:

Black Matt said...

Test

Aldonis said...

You kick his arse and there's a bonus in there for that stuff you are painting for me!

:)

HuronBH said...

LOL. Matt, no getting out of it, You and I will share a beer afterward and talk about our great losses.

AbusePuppy said...

Why is list-building not a part of the competition? If you know you are bringing an inferior list, why do you not change it? Isn't that like saying "I know that Lashing his Terminators into me would only kill me faster, and I did it anyways and lost; therefore, the game wasn't fair
"?

Raptor1313 said...

If list-building is a part of the game (along with player skill, which is also major) and luck, then why bring a list you feel is inferior?

I gotta say I think the whole point of putting out nasty lists and explaining how they work is to educate folks into what's effective in this game versus what isn't.

I agree that it's also up to the PLAYERS to have fun, and you're right to point out that no one goes to a tournament to lose, and no one goes hoping they WILL get crushed. I'm in the camp that enjoys a close game myself, but I'm also in the camp that believes in bringing an effective list.

As for WAAC, I think you move into the 'ALL' part of the costs when it includes being a dick to the other guy and the like. If you're not cheating, if you're being a courteous human being, and if you're playing the game quickly and efficiently, then I think you're doing just fine, and the rest is on you as a player.

I'll buy your point that comp is crap, and on principle I'll quibble about your point regarding list variation. I'll agree that not all codices are equal, but at a point it gets a little more abstract with regards to A =? B when, y'know, one army doesn't have access to meltaguns and the other DOES. It's honestly on GW to decide whether or not they can balance their system, but that also makes assumptions that they'll update army books without 'Space Marine' in the title more often than once a decade to keep up with the rules shift.

All that aside, I'm curious to see how the mirror matches turn out.

Black Matt said...

@aldonis
We will see, but he is to good to beat with an inferior list.
@huron
Believe me, I didn't spend all this dough to try and get out of anything. I am right where I wanna be. "i love it when a plan comes together!" - hamnibal from the a team.
@ abusepuppy
list building is not apart of competition because Stelek is so good at what he does. I've built a razor wolves list for our tournament and I bought the models BEFORE I ever looked at the codex. I did it by googling stelek best of space wolves! I've bought the codex since and have made minor changes to my list to fit my preferences but that right there is why list should not part be part of the competition. I left out a very specific example in my article about another club member. He has essentially copied one of stelek marine best of lists. He plays a gun line and everything in the game was in his favor. Except arsenals, and I quote him "if I can't win in this scenario, I can't beat this list."
@raptor
Hold on a second.

Killswitch said...

Take 9 oblits and watch him cry as he lacks reliable AP 1/2. Lash those thunderwolves and long fangs around followed by plasma ;D! Don't bother with raiders, wolves love em, take msu's, you can do it too!

Black Matt said...

@raptor
List building is definetly part of the game, but so are funky scenarios where things aren't always even, painting, and sportsmanship. If these soft score categories are criticized, why are not the list and the leverage they give not scrutinized?

I won't be bringing an inferior list to tournament, but in my game against stelek, I will be playing lash! I will throw myself on that sword. I am a decent player and I will do everything I can to win! It also looks like I will be playing stelek because none of the winners at the club will speak up. Fritz is the first among them that talks about how he is never beaten with skill but with another persons list. No word from him, jawaballs, Danny Internets!
Anyone have the game to steal my thunder?
@killswitch,
It will be similar to that but he does have enough to tear me open.

Black Blow Fly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Black Blow Fly said...

Maybe (it sounds like) you are feeling some apprehension in regards to playing Stelek. You made the offer so you are bound by your word as an informal contract. If it were me I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about who wins. Bring your best list and have at it. You should by now have a good idea what Stelek might bring (e.g., SW MSU) - playtest, playtest and playtest some more. You've stated what you plan to bring so I suggest you kindly ask Stelek what he is planning to bring. I dont think that's a big deal honestly. It's all about your preparation for the game now and you still have time to sort it all out. I do think some of us envy your opportunity so dont go looking a gift horse in the mouth. Play your best game and you'll be fine. Probably no one expects you to win so if you end up with a good game and give Stelek the proverbial black eye we will be impressed.

G

AbusePuppy said...

>list building is not apart of competition because Stelek is so good at what he does.

So being good at things means they "don't count"? Jeez, don't tell Micheal Jordan, Leonardo da Vinci, Stephen Hawking, etc, about that, they're gonna be pissed.

Just because someone has an advantage over you in a competition does not make it not a competition. You could argue that the _level_ of competition is unfair (if, say, you or I were to play Jordan at basketball, most would consider it "not a competition" because he is a professional and absurdly above our skill level.) However, in 40K this just isn't the case- however much better Stelek may be, he's not a professional and hasn't dedicated his life to the game, nor can he compensate for luck-based factors enough to guarantee a win.

Contrary to popular belief, just copying a list off the internet doesn't make it (or you) good. I'm still not sure I understand why you say "that right there is why list should not be part of the competition." Just like any other lists, Stelek's lists have weaknesses- though, in theory, less glaring ones, since he tends to be good at writing them. A good player can assess and focus on those weaknesses; a bad player will be unable to defend them. Skill in writing a list, skill in selecting a list to use; both of these are still important parts of the game.

Messanger of Death said...

Everything will be okay *e-hug*

Messanger

Mal said...

List building is not just a 'copy and paste' exercise. Its not just about taking the strongest units you can field.

List building is baout 2 things, and 2 things only, balance and redundancy. Im not going to cover redundancy because everyone at this level should know what I mean by that by now, however balance is a little more complex than it first appears.

Balance in a list, when balancing a list there are a number of factors that need to be taken into consideration, synergy (both with the minis and with your play style), metagame and a little something I like to call the rabbit-punch.

Synergy within your armylist is another aspect people at this level should know all about so again, im not going to cover that here, however synergy witin your playing style isn't something a lot of players conciously consider when building a list. Taking units you know are effective is all well and good, but how effective are you at utalising them within your army build?

Metagame, seriously if you don't understand this concept at a tournament level then there isn't much hope for you.

Lastly the fabled Rabbit-Punch. I bet most of you are wondering what the the seven circles of hell im talking about here?
Well the Rabbit-Punch is actually for the most part a psychological tactic rather then a unit tactic, it involves the drastically unexpected. For example, you show up at a tournament and everyone expects a certian style of force, such as MSU, however you don't show up with the expected, you bring something so far outside the Metagame that people will be thrown and oput on the back foot before you even set up your first game. There are heavy drawbacks with a rabbit-punch, if you go too far outside the metagame then you'll loose combat effectiveness, and you still need a competative force, so its a matter of finding that tricky list' that works in a tournament but is outside the metagame.. they do exist, but to be fair they also require a lot of research and pratice to make them effective.

Even if you choose not to use the rabbit-punch army list you can still make use of other psychological factors to put what may be an unbalanced game in your favour. After all good players who are not thinking stright make mistakes, mistakes cost games.

Black Matt said...

@abusedpuppy
When I say that he good at what be does, I mean everything. Not just writing the list, but publishing it. His site is very popular and people who are going to be in tournaments go to his site and get these monsters. I did, and I thought my last comment demonstrated that. My first game with the space wolves was in a 40 man tourney where I got 4th. I had never played the list/codex before. I bought it there that morning!

Look, stelek really has nothing to do with this. Uneven lists are the object of question here.

@blowfly
I am not trying to insult you but please don't say stupid shit. I have had this point and actions planned out since I knew about our gt. Look at my battle reports where I get my ass kicked, I have no problems or reserves about airing games.

Black Matt said...

@blowfly
Excuse me, rereading that sounds very rude.

Black Matt said...

@mal,
I Agree and disagree with some of you comments. In regards to list building can't be cut and pasted, I disagree and my actions have have proven that.
That will depend on how well I do at the battle for salvation tournament. We will see. I like the rabbit bunch ideas, it reminds me of fritz.

Thanks for the comments. !

Mal said...

If you cut and paste a good list, all you have is a good list in the hands of a general who obviously can't write a list worth a damn, ergo, they suck.

A good general writes tgheir list with their own play style in mind, yes marines do allow cookie cutter lists more readily than most other armies, but pratice with how the army plays is at least as important as the list itself, and experience can't be copyed and pasted from the internet.

Aldonis said...

Hey Matt,

This is meant to be motivational!

I think you are not giving yourself enough props for being able to compete against Razorwolf spam with the Chaos boyz. Twin Lash is still effective. If you are running a bunch of plague marine/rhino's - plus oblits - you can play the denial game and (I think) hang with most armies in the game.

If you listen to the naysayers that say "you can't win" then you will create a self fulfilling prophecy. But - if you go in with the "I'm gonna take him DOWN" mentality - maybe that becomes another self fulfilling prophecy of it's own.

In the words of Rob Schneider "YOU CAN DO IT!"

Mal said...

Nice post Aldonis, its not often you see another 40K player even admit there is a psychological aspect to the game!

Mal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SandWyrm said...

I'm not sure why you don't think list-building should be part of the competition of 40K. Or why you want to take a self-admittedly sub-par list to a high-level competitive game. It seems a bit self-righteous and whiny to me honestly. Like you want a way to save face if you lose.

If I were playing Stelek I'd seek to play the best game I possibly could. For both his enjoyment and mine. Even if I lost I'd know I hadn't held anything back. Plus I'd have his and others' respect. And... I might learn something too.

As to net-lists:

Sports teams of all kinds practice relentlessly and get the best gear they can to compete with. Golfers spend small fortunes on putters that give very small advantages where they need them. It's all a part of the larger game that happens off-field.

40K net-lists are analogous to a low-ranking (American) football team copying the playbook of the Colts, Saints, or Patriots. But without understanding and lots of practice those plays are nothing more than scribbles on paper. Without proper recruiting, they won't have the players that can pull them off. Without proper funding or facilities, the team can't function at all.

And... It's a fun part of the game. Sports fans love to talk about trades, coaching, and stats all day long. I personally love kicking out army list variations when I'm bored, and helping others to make better lists themselves.

Enjoy it!

Black Matt said...

Guys,
This discussion/argument is not about the game, the game is about this discussion/argument. I set it up to prove a point, I know I can win as I have proven that with the battle report against autarch Andrew. See below. The point is that it is highly unlikely that I will win. I wish some of you mathammer geeks would speak up. Especially stelek, as he knows that the space wolves codex is stronger than the chaos codex. If I lose, I prove the point, or at least provide evidence in my favor.
@ sandwyrm
You seem like a dummy, and yes I spelled dumb that way so you could understand. It seems everything must spelled out for you. Did you even read the article?
Not all codexs are equal, I'm sure even your brain damage will let you grasp that one. Therefore all lists on a tournament are not equal, giving pre-game advantage to those who can afford the latest and greatest. Will our hobby's tournament scene grow if all the newbies or bitter vets have only an astronomical chance of winning our tournament because they either can't afford 20+ tanks or they simply don't know their lists are sun par. "awhhh gee wilikers, I just got blown off the board so bad, I can't wait till next time!" Naive bullshit! Combine what's in the article and common sense and its all right there.

You say self righteous to me and I take that as a serious insult! I have spent almost 800 to present and prove this point, and not because I dont believe it. I did it in order to bring about the idea of change. There will be no comprise between comp and no comp. It will divide our hobby tournament scene and we are not large enough to survive and grow that way.
Now that's a self righteous statement, dickweed! But you pulled if out of me, I didn't offer anything of the sort.

Black Matt said...

Guys,
This discussion/argument is not about the game, the game is about this discussion/argument. I set it up to prove a point, I know I can win as I have proven that with the battle report against autarch Andrew. See below. The point is that it is highly unlikely that I will win. I wish some of you mathammer geeks would speak up. Especially stelek, as he knows that the space wolves codex is stronger than the chaos codex. If I lose, I prove the point, or at least provide evidence in my favor.
@ sandwyrm
You seem like a dummy, and yes I spelled dumb that way so you could understand. It seems everything must spelled out for you. Did you even read the article?
Not all codexs are equal, I'm sure even your brain damage will let you grasp that one. Therefore all lists on a tournament are not equal, giving pre-game advantage to those who can afford the latest and greatest. Will our hobby's tournament scene grow if all the newbies or bitter vets have only an astronomical chance of winning our tournament because they either can't afford 20+ tanks or they simply don't know their lists are sun par. "awhhh gee wilikers, I just got blown off the board so bad, I can't wait till next time!" Naive bullshit! Combine what's in the article and common sense and its all right there.

You say self righteous to me and I take that as a serious insult! I have spent almost 800 to present and prove this point, and not because I dont believe it. I did it in order to bring about the idea of change. There will be no comprise between comp and no comp. It will divide our hobby tournament scene and we are not large enough to survive and grow that way.
Now that's a self righteous statement, dickweed! But you pulled if out of me, I didn't offer anything of the sort.

SandWyrm said...

@Black Matt

LOL! That's funny. Is this where I'm supposed to call you a poo-poo head too?

I read your article, understood it, disagreed with it, and called you out on what I think is the real issue. Your own ego.

Every tourney player knows the Chaos codex has problems against all of the newer Codices. So do Eldar, Orks, and especially Daemonhunters. There are other codices (Tau, Witchunters, Dark Eldar) that do fine in competitive play, though only through mono-builds and in some cases only at specific point levels. It's a known problem that only GW can address. It is, just not very fast.

So what will falling on your sword accomplish? If you honestly think that a Dual Lash list has a good chance against Stelek, then by all means go kick his ass. I'll root for you and laugh at him if you win. But, if you honestly believe your list to be impossibly inferior, why go to the trouble of setting up this game? It's like playing football in high heels. You can act like it's morally superior to be ground into the dirt, but the crowd will only point, laugh at you, and yell at you to grow up and try your best.

Kisses!

Nick said...

hm, so you want a tabletop military strategy game where both players have the exact same roster?

How about you remove terrain from the equation to promote fairness?

Plus you can take away dice to remove that vile she-devil, Luck from the picture!

You sir, need to play CHESS!

If you wanted to keep a 40k feel to it, you could even paint up a bad-ass set of pieces too.

I wish you luck in your new foray into a game that grants all of your wishes!

Black Matt said...

No Nick,
Just in a competitive event. I love 40k they it is. I Really think GW does a good job producing a game I enjoy everyday. But you can't call an event competitive when someone has a slingshot and the other person has a bazooka. Its funny because I am the one holding the bazooka, kaboom! I play the harder lists and i am socially tuned enough to see why only 6 or so members of our own club are signed up for our own tournament. We have 30 or so active paying members. They aren't playing because they know they will get the shit kicked out of them. It's social dynamics. It's obvious!
Sorry, that got a little more into it than I meant.

lil will said...

I dont get it. Why do you think the list is inferior and that you'll lose? A game can go either way so i dont see why you would say that you cant beat him.

Nick said...

Matt:
The slingshot bazooka analogy would work if the tournament shuffled a bunch of army lists together and dealt them out randomly to the participants.

If you CHOOSE to bring a slingshot to a bazooka fight, that is not the competitive environment's fault! My suggestion to the 24 other members of your club is this: Instead of dodging competitive tournaments because your lists suck, learn to build better lists! Then learn tactics to make good lists work well!

No one LIKES to get their face bashed in, but quitting competitive play and staying in the newbie zone for the rest of your life is not how we better ourselves, either as people or as players, and you do your friends no favors by encouraging this sort of behavior.

Black Matt said...

Help me out with what "this type of behavior" is.
Do you mean presenting new ideas and let people debate the merits.
You know nothing of the other members of my club. Your prejudices about something you know nothing about, my fellow club members preferences in play style, clearly demonstrates that the idiocies that dribble out of your mouth stain any intelligent conversation.
Keep your mouth shut and let the adults speak!

pissclams said...

actually we have 14 registered members playing the Tournament. About 10 others are helping to run it.

SandWyrm said...

"Help me out with what "this type of behavior" is."

Whining about how events can't be competitive without identical lists. Wasting the time of quality players with self-admittedly bad lists; in order to "prove" what everyone else figured out about this flawed but fun game a couple of years before you had your wondrous epiphany.

There is no new information here. There is only your own self-made emo dramaz. Get over yourself.

"Do you mean presenting new ideas and let people debate the merits."

Calling people names is not civilized debate.

"Your prejudices about something you know nothing about, my fellow club members preferences in play style, clearly demonstrates that the idiocies that dribble out of your mouth stain any intelligent conversation."

Exhibit A. If you don't want us judging your opinions, don't post them on a blog.

"Keep your mouth shut and let the adults speak!"

LOL! What are you, Twelve? Can you even drive yet without Mommy in the car?

Black Matt said...

But I don't want to get over myself, I like me. I think you like me too, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back for more punishment after a twelve year old made you look the fool! When you mention mommy, that reminds me that I have your mom in the car and I got to go put that slut out on the street for the night. She better listen this time and get rid of any mistakes like you.
Lol, I've got this all day bitch!
Mad yet? Maybe you could say something about my ego or age, cause those are CLASSICS by now I'm enjoying myself! Really, cause normally this stuff bothers me but I'm owning you.

SandWyrm said...

"But I don't want to get over myself, I like me."

Oh, I bet you're liking yourself right now all over the family dog. How much bacon did that take again? You could offer him a whole steak, but he still won't lift his tail for your tiny dick.

"I think you like me too, otherwise you wouldn't keep coming back for more punishment after a twelve year old made you look the fool!"

Ha! When was that again? I couldn't hear over the sound of the Internet laughing it's ass off at you.

"When you mention mommy, that reminds me that I have your mom in the car and I got to go put that slut out on the street for the night."

Sorry to break it to you dude, but that was your Tranny-Dad in a blue wig. But we can't expect a virgin to know what's supposed to be under the bicycle shorts now, can we?

"She better listen this time and get rid of any mistakes like you.

(Sniff) Dad? Oh wait it's just some whiny kid who thinks he's actually clever.

"Lol, I've got this all day bitch!"

Did you get that off of the TV? Who the fuck actually says stupid cliched shit like that? It's like you're not even trying.

"Mad yet?"

Why would I be mad? I'd have to be decently insulted first and you're fucking that up royally.

"I'm enjoying myself! Really, cause normally this stuff bothers me but I'm owning you."

Somebody call Deathtron! He has to see this!

Kevinmcd28 said...

ok thats too many comments for what was obviously a humerous post matt, lol at sandwyrm or w/e.

You did not pay for his ticket really did you??? (stomach churned a little there). hmmm dual lash vs razorwolf..... If you can stand the Razorbacks and get rid of them a lash list possibly could win, I wouldnt rule it out.

Nick said...

Quote:
"I play the harder lists and i am socially tuned enough to see why only 6 or so members of our own club are signed up for our own tournament. We have 30 or so active paying members. They aren't playing because they know they will get the shit kicked out of them. "
-Black Matt

THAT type of behavior. The desire to run away from a hard fight.

All I know about your club is what you posted. Sorry if it was unclear.

Black Matt said...

@nick
Thanks for explaining that and it makes sense, but a lit of the guys aren't looking to fight about anything.

VT2 said...

Let's see if I got this right.
You're a bad player, and you know this.
You've decided to bring a bad list against someone with a good list, and the good list is played by a good player.

What's that gonna prove, other than that you're a massive scrub?

Da Warboss said...

Sounds like you've already given up, Matt. Don't give Stelek any more creadance than any other bipolar chihuahua. They bark a lot, and say shit like 'where are the loudmouths' when most can't afford a ticket to NY.

Buy my ticket to NY and I'll play him 4 u :) I love shutting people like him up.

Black Matt said...

@da warboss
I've prettymuch blown my load on everything up to this point. I saved the profit from my last couple of paintingcommissions and payed for the ticket and the razor wolves army. Not much left, and it looks like theres not more than enough to pay for the next army to sell. Anyway, it looks like I am going to have to do it myself. No one in my club had the courage to stand up publicly now that stelek released the dogs. I know several of them thought it was a great idea. The thing about his loudmouth dogs is that they are easily baitable. They are predictable and stupid and unless stelek tells them what to say, they resort to hate. if you want an ass to kick his legs, slap it. Before this drama, there was no real grudge match, but now I'm in his head! If your gonna kill the king, do it so the w hole world can see.

Mal said...

So what your saying is you created this edrama to make a grudge match and to try to get under his skin...

Thats not a very effective method of baiting someone as it just makes you look small.

Im not trying to be offensive, but you DO look small from where im standing (neutral on both sides, just enjoying the drama).

However any experienced player will never underestimate their opponent or their opponents army so such tactics simply wont work on a decent player.

Now to sum this up, you think he is baitable by these tactics, which means you think hes not a good player, yet you brought him an airline ticket to play you?

Doesn't make sense, lets look at it another way.

You think hes a good player so you invite him down for a match, you even buy him an airline ticket, which makes sense if hes a really good player and you want the challenge... but to then try to use tactics that never work on good players to bait him?
Again doesn't make sense.

Sorry here friend but either you motivations or your replies are false.

Black Matt said...

Mal,
If possible, and without insult meant, would you please re read my comment.
And after that, please explain where I was speaking about stelek. I assume you mean stelek when you say he or good player. I have praised Stelek, again and again. I was in fact speaking about the ytth zombies. I think that's a reference that I have heard used. It may not be correct, but I am referring to the recurring, anonymous, malicious, high schoolers that group hug anything he wants them to. I think that the term zombies is an excellent description, cause I see no real brain activity for the most part. MUST EAT BRAINS! CAUSE STELEK SAYS SO!
no matter what's said next, he said attack and they did, just the way I knew they would:) Aren't you the one how wrote about the psychology of the game? Do you think the WWE is real? this seems to be over your head. if I'm small, I am still looming over you. I'm not trying to insult!

Mal said...

You state your 'in his head' and talk about killing the king where the whole world can see... in this you are refering to Stelek.

And yes I have heard the comment about YTTH zombies, and I don't entirely agree with it, yes there is an element of fanboism but you'll get that pretty much anywhere where 40K is concerned, its unavoidable, best advice, ignore it and move on.

For the record I called you small because your using what I wuld consider to be elementry school yard tactics to 'get under his skin'. Its not big and its not clever. If he tried such petty tactics then i'd call him out on it also, but he hasn't, nor has he told anyone in his blog to attack you. He merely posted what his thoughts of your actions/posts meant... which lets face it, its his blog if he wants to post his thoughts up, hes perfectly entitled to... freedom of speach and all that jazz.

Yes yes I know you have the exact same rights, and your even allowed to insult him until your blue in the face... but just because you can be insulting doesn't mean you should. Again its not big and its not clever.

This is why I called you small, because your behaviour is remeniscent of a child... and a spoilt one at that.

I frequent YTTH for one purpose and one purpose only, it has good quality articles... yes some are not so great, but for the most part, they are well written, informative and respectful. Please do everyone a favour, learn from this example. You seem to want to put a good impression of your game group across, and much you should... but your failing badly.. you putting across an image of the worst kind of gamer out there... now I can read between the lines, but most people either can't or don't bother to do so... so please for everyones sake... learn some restraint.

SandWyrm said...

(Sigh)

For what it's worth I originally came in here because Number 6 over on Librariam Online said that your post was very interesting. I found it flawed and responded. It was only later on that I saw Stelek had linked to you. If you've read his blog for any length of time you know that I call him out on his shit too.

Now, if you go back and look at my first post here you'll see that it was very matter-of-fact. Just because I don't sugar coat everything with preventive apologies to any possible imagined slight, doesn't mean that I meant to offend. That you chose to take offense to my criticism and start calling me names says a lot about the fragility of your ego. It's childish, regardless of how old you actually may be.

I suppose that you're used to people crumpling when you snarl at them. But you really need to grow up and learn to self-reflect instead. It's much more productive in the long run.

GDMNW said...

Wow. There is some anger over here huh?

Anyway. On with the comment.

I am impressed that you have agreed to pay for Stelek to come and play a game against you. Kudos for that.

I think I can just about see where you are coming from when you say you want to use a supposedly underpowered codex too.

I do think you should do your absolute best with what you have though. I think that if you are going to use Chaos Space Marines you should do everything you can to beat him.

I guess I was not clear from the above that this was your plan...

It sounded almost like you are going to play to lose. Or not take the absolute best CSM list you can build. Which would strike me as odd.

Finally. Vitriol always comes over better when it is spelt and punctuated properly. Especially when you are demeaning the intelligence of another individual or group. Pro Tip.

Black Matt said...

Gdmnw,
I will do everything I can to win. But if I had to bet, I would wager on space wlves. They are nasty.
As far as the hate, these ytth numb nuts brought it over here. None of their criticisms or yours bothered discussing the article. Why or why not a tournament of even rosters would work. They attacked, and I defended making them look stupid.
Finally.
Would this be better supported with a comma and a statement. It looks like a incomplete sentence but your the educated one. I'll trust you and thanks for the tip, pro!

SandWyrm said...

Funny, I thought that Nick nailed it many comments back. 40K is not Go, Chess, or Checkers. It's closest analog is Poker or MTG. Except that those games have much less luck variation than 40K does because they don't use dice. But they're similar in that the player can use various strategies to mitigate the effects of bad luck.

So, your idea of a standardized tourney fails for a variety of obvious reasons, but I'll rattle off a few.

1) Nobody but a tiny minority of players would want to play the exact same army/list in a tourney. Some people just don't like Guard, Orks, Marines or whatever at all.

2) So you'd have to somehow come up with exactly equivalent lists for every codex. Good luck with that. It can't be done.

3) Are you going to provide models for everyone to use? I can't bring my Mech Guard if you standardize on a platoon-based list for IG. Or my Sanguinary Guard list if BA have to do a Razor/Pred rush.

So as Nick said so well, success would mean that you'd end up with a game that uses 40K models, but which isn't actually 40K at all. So why go there? What's the point?

'Go' is the game you want, not 40K. It's got strategy, a formal ranking system with set handicaps for games between unequal players, and it's utterly deterministic. Something that 40K will never, ever, be.

And then, you claim you can prove the viability of this mental masturbation by paying $$$ to throw a game with Stelek? Where losing with a bad list will somehow magically prove your point?

What point? That 40K isn't deterministic or perfectly balanced? We all know that already. Dur!

So all that's left is what can be discussed. Your desire to throw a game with Stelek for no real point.

GDMNW said...

Thanks for getting back to me.

Finally. That's exasperation without an exclamation.

wlves = wolves
a incomplete = an incomplete
your = you're

Enough about that. Let us talk about your article.

Essentially you're starting in the wrong place. Warhammer 40.000 tournaments are always between equally matched opponents.

You have the same range of armies available, the same rules and the same codices, you also have the same range of miniatures and principles governing conversions and use of your own work. That's totally fair and just in every possible way. The counts as rules even mean that if you are too poor to buy the official models you can model your own cheaply.

What a boon for the poor student wargamer!

All you have done is try to avoid responsibility for your choice of army and codex by moving your starting point for fairness to after army selection.

I can see why you might do that. If you only have one army and you want to use it in any given tournament for instance. But it is still ridiculous that you insist that your preference be made equally capable.

Can you imagine teams in the NHL arguing for a handicap system to let their team compete because they're not willing to go out and get the best players? I hope not, it would be weird.

The tournament is totally fair. You too can choose an effective list, models and codex.

If you want to start with a poor decision you cannot act surprised when you do not do as well as those who made better decisions in army selection.

You get me?

Da Warboss said...

On a side note, if it's WYSIWUG, I swear some people in this hobby must be mortgaging their homes for some of the army lists I see. I looked at Stelek's 10 TWC + lord + the rest...E-Bay is your friend...but not that good a friend. Must be lack of a family/girl friend that lets you minis mizers get away with it....

VT2 said...

It doesn't accomplish anything.

Just a scrub thinking he's on a mission to do uhh, stuff? I don't know.

If mister Black's all about proving to the world how useless lash is, then yes, mission accomplished.

Black Matt said...

ahhh, 50 is so sweet! Thanks for the help, numb nuts!