"counts as," rant




16 comments:

HuronBH said...

Hey man, I hate to go there but people have a right to their own opinion too. I get that you want to be able to play whatever as whatever, as long as the model is WYSISYG, but how far does that go. Should paint count for WYSISYG?

Personally I think it should, and it would be nice to see a chaos army played as a chaos army sometime again. Everyone is using their chaos as Space Wolves or BAs or I have even seen Chaos as BT. What ever happened to honoring your colors and making it work? I guess I am old fashion, and that is my choice. I do not expect others to stick to how I want to play the game, I have no right too. Heck I used a White Scars character in my Howling Griffons, I guess I may be guilty of counts as too.

In the long run it is all about playing the game the way it is fun for you. If it is not fun, then why play? However a TO has a right to run their event as they want to, too.

Michael Hogan said...

I agree with you Matt. There are a a million different chapters out there, what is the difference between playing Chaos and playing a splinter faction of Space Wolves which are Chaos.

I can see how everyone complains about most armies playing as Blood Angels or Space Wolves, but is it really that big of a deal? Maybe it is because I've never experienced it, but what difference does it make whether or not they went out and bought entirely new models or are using ones that were for a past army?

It guess most people don't like it because it makes Flavor of the Month armies too easy to switch too and that bothers people. Or maybe Loyal Space Wolves players get upset because people who have no regard for their fluff are playing the army they play because it's strong. I know that if suddenly everyone started playing Grey Knights when the new codex comes out, I'd be a bit upset, but I wouldn't hold it against anyone in particular.

As long as your models clearly represent what they should be, I'm fine. Heck, if your scout with a meltagun is actually a Stormtrooper or vice-versa, then power to you. Those kind of conversions are cool. But if you have a Stormtrooper with a lasgun representing a Sergeant with a power fist in your Tactical Squad when everyone else is in Power Armor, it would be a bit odd and out of place. Or if you want to make all flamers actually count as Heavy Flamers, I'm fine. But if you want to make a flamer count as a meltagun, then I'd might be a bit bothered in a tournament setting, but in a friendly game that's fine. As long as it is obvious.

Zach said...

Matt I understand where you are coming from man: I have been using my Night Lords army as standard marines and even though I don't use the special characters, I take a lot of flak from the local Space Marine players.

Like you said man whatever it comes down to, these are your models, and this is how you want to see the game played. Period.

ctreleheb said...

I agree on this subject as well. For Chaos players especially, using counts as is a great way to continue to enjoy the game in a competitive way, with the models we like best, while we wait on a new codex. If everything is completely WYSIWYG and the only difference is that the guys have a few spikes and a different paint color, what's the big deal.

I was able to pull out my old 3rd edition Night Lords army and use it completely without changes using the Blood Angels codex. This was great for me, as I don't particularly like the Blood Angels fluff, models, or paint scheme. But they do have a cool new rulebook with a few things you can't do with any other codex. This is appealing and keeps the game fun.

Also, why don't internet trolls ever whine about Chaos Renegade Imperial Guard armies? They're exactly the same as a Chaos Space Wolf Army. They are using guard models with Chaos spikes and symbols, which is exactly the same as the power armor equivalent "counts as".

On the other hand, there is a fine line and everything needs to be modeled correctly with appropriate equipment. I think "counts as" armies get a bad wrap from people that don't follow the WYSIWYG rules.

Black Matt said...

@huron
Awesome, I'm glad someone voiced a counter opinion. I play so often that I'm tired if playing the same codex, and I like he chaos codex. It just seems wrong that I should have to go and buy a whole new army if I want to play a new codex. Plus, how long have I been painting my chaos.
Or a better example would be my imperial fists. Last edition I had the lysander bomb. With the release of the newer space marine codex, I got hammered. Try doing something with two 5 man scout squads as scoring units. The imperial fists hit the shelves until I sunk another chunk of change into them to make them 5th edition playable. Yes I could have continued to play them, but I didn't want to! the same with my chaos now. And really the strongest point is that its my stuff, time and money. I simply don't want to have myfreedom of choice stepped on. I really don't proxy anything

I'm not angry in the video, just animated cause who wants to watch me all mono-toned. Just stiring the pot.

Grimnar Angband said...

Great minds think alike. I wrote my own thoughts on this topic myself. Keep your Khorny rage flowing. If anyone argues, crush them. lol

http://fistofangband.blogspot.com/2011/01/article-counting-as-article.html

donelbayne said...

I think the reason people seem irritated by "Counts As" is because it appears that there are really only two armies being represented in this. Something counts as BA and more often something counts as Space Wolves. I do not mind counts as but I do think it would get old playing against the same two armies all the time though.

Meatball said...

I don't have any problems with "Counts As" armies as long as you have the codex you are playing from and the models are WYSIWYG I could care less what you are using. My issues is when people do "Counts As" and then don't even have the codex so that they know the correct rules.

Marshal Wilhelm said...

I am pro-count as.
Playing is fun. Why be down just because it is not all painted exactly as GW says so?

Not everyone can paint well, or afford more than one army or even knew what faction was their dream Dex. Some just want a change.

Why are they making an issue?

You would actually prefer to not play me at all?! o_O
I guess you don't like playing as much as me?

Dan (nyhil) said...

I like the freedom that comes with modeling "counts as" projects, but I do understand why some people could take issue. A few weeks ago Whiskey & 40k had a long thread about a guy who wanted to play his already painted craftworld eldar with the dark eldar codex. The Gamer's Lounge even interviewed this guy. In the interview, he said that he thought craftworld eldar were not as competitive as the new DE, and that he had "already given GW enough money".  He wanted to play an unconverted, pre-painted craftworld eldar, which is an at that already exists I. GW, as another army. Matt, I agree that people have the freedom to do whatever they want casually, but this really rubs me the wrong way. Using the SW codex to run Luna Wolves with the right paintjob and pre-heresey armor is cool. Saying that your Tyranids suck so you want to play them as Orks because you don't want to spend time or money to try a new codex, not really the same thing. The Khorne army you themed around the SW codex is cool!  But you comitted time and money to do so. Personally, I think the Tyranids as Orks guy, and even the Craftworld Eldar as Dark Eldar guy, are both discrediting your own work.  

Worth noting:  I have a Vraksian IG army that I play using the IG codex. Vraksian Renegades do not currently have a GW tournament legal codex, so I don't even see this as "counts-as". My CURRENT project is a couts as collection, using the Dark Eldar codex with a %100 converted Skaven model range. I feel that the effort I put into this project, as well as the fact that Skaven do not currently exist in the GW 40k range, makes my project completely legitimate. I am not trying to switch to a flavor of the month on the cheap, as the Forgeworld and conversions I am doing show little restraint monetarily. I simply like the DE ruleset, dislike the DE model range (seriously, I do not like them, aside from the raider kit), and want to field something totally unique. 

Unique unless I am playing HuronBH, of course!  =D

Anyway, in closing, conversions good, cheapskate bad. My two cents. 

The_King_Elessar said...

I completely agree!

I use my stuff as what I want., and screw everyone who says I "shouldn't" !

Also, @ctreleheb - I have seen someone complain about Chaos IG, actually. He got shouted down pretty damn fast...including by me. :)

Black Matt said...

Guys,
Sorry I wasnt able to keep this conversation going through out the week.
I absolutely respect everyones opinion adn I am glad that everyone has made their case, but no one has convinced me why I shouldnt do what I want wiht my own property. In a couple of the comments I would say that the line between counts as and proxying got a little fuzzy but maybe thats for someone else to define.

Wallshammer said...

My counter argument would be... why play with models? If you think I should play, without questions, a chaos marine army using space wolf rules (because they are better), then what is wrong with just putting bases down and having "melta gun" or "sgt w/ powerfist" or "lascannon" written on them?

Would you be fine with people using banshees as Wyches or dire avengers as Warriors? What about Kroot warriors as guants? Ghouls as Plaguebearers? Sentinels as dreadnaughts?

If the models don't matter, then the models aren't important. Yes, the counter argument is this is a mini's game, the miniatures provide a sense in invocative storytelling, etc, etc... but chaos marine models using BA or SW rules immediately take away that sense of story one tries to get playing the game. So at that point, really, why not just use bases with flags saying what they are?

Black Matt said...

I wish ihad a keyboard instead of typing/testing this.
If I remember correctly, I tried to communicate that the color or type of marine didnt matter. I understand what your saying but its still a miniatures game where I need today line of site to a torso or a vehicles hull. What difference, or how does it hinder game play by what color that hull or torso is.
Ghouls as plaguebearers, great! Banshees as wyches, or wyches as banshees, awesome! Sentinels as dreadnoughts, I'd love to see the conversion. I think I was clear, or let me be now, proxying is not the same as counts as. If anyone can't see the difference, then just consider yourself correct. But any Nazi who tries to say what I Can and can't do is in going to be ignored.

I guess I should bring up a do it yourself chapter. Are these models allowed to play what codex they want? Could anyone please email me the link where I have to ask for permission to use a codex?!
J/k. I appreciate the comment and your argument has come the closest to convincing Me, but I think that since being able to see the models is necessary for the rules, the minis are necessary.

Wallshammer said...

I really should have prefaced my post more accurately, lol.

My problem, inherently, isn't in the Counts As "problems" but rather in the argument of the employer. You're in the minority that ADMITS to using the other codexes for the rules. The VAST VAST VAST majority are using horrible arguments to validate "fluff". No no... I use the BA/SW/DE/whatever rules because they fit my chapter better! We all know that's complete trite bullshit as the army always changes fluff with the new flavor of the month. Just wait and see how many Deathwing chaos armies there are.

I have no problem with you doing them the way you want because you tell the truth as to why you do it. Let's face it. The chaos marine book is horribly outdated and in a tourney scene just doesn't cut it, good player or not. My initial retort was based on the tone of the video which I thought was mired in a bit of hypocrisy. "You have no right to tell me what to do! I can do what I want." While true, we as readers/viewers/hobbyists also have the right to say our views/opinions/bitching as well.

Black Matt said...

Wallshammer,
here I am at home with my favorito keyboard so I hope this makes more sense.

Thank you and I wholeheartedly appreciate your comment and viewpoint. I think it is original and expressed well. Thank you also for the compliment.

I said it before in the above comments, but I was just stirring the pot. As all should know, edrama draws a lot of people and its a way to get grow your blog. However, I do feel the way I come across. Just not angry as it seems.