What is the right choice????

Guys, I wont do this often but when Doug wrote in with this email, he gave me an opportunity to address something. Something that would be hard for me to address without the question being asked. What army would I start that is both fun and competitive?
"Black Matt,
Greetings....I found your blog thru "Yes The Trust Hurts>>>Bald & Screaming website"...then posting there...to you...Anyway....I love your painting and the conversion work on your chaos mini's. The Obliterators look sick. great job. So i have been watching the videos that you have posted, and i have been following 'Ard Boyz lists etc...and I just started back playing in the new 5th edition rules. I have about 5 games under my belt with my old space marine army (painted pre-heresy world eaters). The figs and paint job is about 3-4 years old, so I want to start fresh with a new list and army and then sell off my old army.I do believe that your advice is very solid, that you should really have a roughed out plan for your army, and then start putting it together, paint it, and amend it on the fly when needed.
So with that ammo I am working on a new 40k army. But, I am really torn in a few different directions, and I was hoping that you could help push me in the right direction. I want a functioning army being able to be played solid at 1750, and then having the opportunity to get more disgusting as the points increase.For this new army I am pretty much starting from the ground up (new figs, paint scheme). I currently have a decent amount of regular space marines ready to assemble and paint. I know that I am going to play some type of space marine, and I will either go Chaos or Loyal to the Emperor. I am looking to get a base army of 1750..and then go up from that as needed.I could really use your opinion and 40k experience to maybe give me some more insight on an army to be used for both fun and competitive play. I realize that playing in a tournament is a totally different mindset, I know I played in the first GT in Baltimore, and I played in the GT at games day about 4 years ago. any army would be a great foundation even if i switched a few things around for more fun type games. I also feel that I want to take my time putting together the models, converting, and painting. There is no reason to rush doing work on an army to not be satisfied with the end result.
So 'Ere We Go'....What are your thoughts on the following lists....
For the Loyalists:For the few games I have under my belt I have been playing Stelek's 1750 "Best of" list. basically it is the Master of the Forge, Telion, Snipers, 3x Dreads (MM/CCW), 3x Tactical Squads (Flamer, MM, Rhino), 3x Dakka Preds, and 2x squadrons of 2x Land Speeders (MM/HF). Pretty tight list...gets the job done. The army has a ton of meltas in it and everything in the army is a threat.I have been talking with Khornatedemon thru Dakka Dakka, and his Salamander list looks very good. I was really happy to see that you have played him in your club (which I really must try to hit since i live on long island). Having Vulkan in a list giving you rerolls is excellent. The list does suffer from the "all the eggs in one basket".His list is roughly:
190 – Vulkan,
200 – 5x Assault Terminators TH/SS,
250 Land Raider Redeemer (240 +10MM),
105 – Dread MM/CCW,
105 – Dread MM/CCW,
210 – Tact. Sq. Meltagun (+10), MM, Rhino,
210 – Tact. Sq. Meltagun (+10), MM, Rhino,
210 – Tact. Sq. Meltagun (+10), MM, Rhino,
140 – 2x Speeder (+10MM, +10HF),
140 – 2x Speeder (+10MM, +10HF)
Chaos:The Nurgle list really fascinates me. Playing against my one friend who uses plague marines. The plague marines are the best troop choice in the game. 3+ armor save followed by the 4+(i think) invul save. They are a tough bunch to get off an objective, or try to hurt in close combat. The list I would model would be the one from your site. it is a rock solid list. Basically your 1750 Lash list.And finally the Khorne 1750 List. I used to play a Khorne army during 3rd edition. I caused a lot of fear when that army hit the table. I am a fan of both shooting and close combat. Land raider spam can be a lot of fun, i think there is also a possible list here running with rhinos. I fear that the same problems with the bezerkers that were in 3rd & 4th may still be true. No good anti-tank weapons...
So with those 4 choices, what do you think...If you were starting an army from scratch and looking for fun (where people don't continuously calls you Cheesy) and the ability to be competitive....what would you start.What do you recommend.
Thanks for your time, Doug.

If I was building an army with the current codexs to fulfill all of your needs I would use the space marine codex and build the list around Vulkan. With tanks running around all over the place, his value is obvious. Another reason that I would build it around him, is the flexability in the possible builds that you can come up with. Khornate Kris is working on a biker/Land raider melta heaven list that is ard as nails! Another build with the same character is "Its raining meltas!" Drop pods with melta guns that land and blast! You could incorporate some Way of Saimhann tactics with a bunch of Land Speeders using Meltas and Flamers. If you take Vulkan, you can make almost any build work to fill what it is you looking for. Im not giving my opinion on which one of these is a stronger build, I am just pointing out that if you dont know exactly what it is you want, Vulkan provides it regardless!
On the other mutated Chaos hand, I would put Vulkan's head on my pig pole and go for the Khorne list. I love the fearless beserkers and with the abundance of elite, fast attack and hvy choices I dont see there being a problem with anti tank! Skulls for the Skull throne!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway, not nearly as flexible or powerfull, but really fun! Death to the False Emperor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well Doug, thats what I think! I hope it helps.


Doug said...

Thanks for the response and I am glad that you used it for the blog...

I have a sweet conversion i did a long time ago with Kharn, I need to take a pic and send it over to you.

I agree with you...Vulkan is just too good not to take. I am going to work on my loyal Space marines first. Well unless Chaos whispers to me in my sleep.

I would be interested to see a list and a Battle report from Khornate Kris on the biker list. After reading a few forums/blogs, there was a biker list that did real solid in the 'Ard Boyz.

For a 1750 Chaos list, do you recommend the one posted on the site here, or something else?


The_King_Elessar said...

Have to admit some confusion..."abundance of elite, fast attack and hvy choices"? Sure, Chaos has a strong Heavy section (mostly through the Oblit though, let's be honest - without it, nearly only fluff nuts would play Chaos) - but the Chaos Fast Attack and Elites sections are sorely lacking - especially in comparison to their loyalist counterparts.

Perhaps that's what you meant, 'Nilla Marines, but it wasn't clear, if so. IMO. :)

AutarchAndrew said...

yo matt i in NY so im headin out to BFS on monday i would like to setup a game with you man ok

Black Matt said...

andrew, You are on!!!! How many points?

King- I guess I was referring to collectively the nunber of other units you could take in a point expensive chaos army. Chosen, termies with Land raider, bikes with meltas are all sick choices.

The_King_Elessar said...

I prefer Raptors with Meltas - you get 5 for one point more than 3 Bikes with the same loadout, and a deal more survivability, despite the bikes T5. That's just me though.

Black Matt said...

dont forget that bikes get a 3+ cover save when turbo boosting. Just dont run into a Land Raider redemer!

Ash said...

I think that is a great break down. I would only add this. Anyone can play a Vulcan army list. Twin-linked "everything" is easy to play. Chaos, while many will call it cheese when often it is not takes more skill to be good.

Lash is hated but your enemy but they often do not give credit to the skillful ways that you have to manipulate the enemy to pull off a great Lash.

Thus, I find that chaos is a more rewarding army list in the end, It does not have the deep pockets for troop options like the SM but what it has is great if used in the right role.

As a worshiper of the false emperor said to me last night, I would give up a lot of my SM options in order to use an Icon that gives a squad +1 attack, or Inv or Tough or Int. He has a point even if when he said it, it was a curse.

As to the limited list of Fast, Elite and Heavy, I think Chaos is one of the few armies that have great troops, the Fast Elite and Heavy play their proper role, which is to support the troops not take over the show.


The_King_Elessar said...

LOL. I use Raptors as counter-attack units, hiding behind PM Rhinos. Bikes Boosting just makes them vulnerable. If I played someone with a Redeemer in a serious list, I'd probably laugh - it certainly has it's uses, but no Tourny player worth his salt around here would take something (that expensive) that's essentially worthless after an Immob'd result, even with all it's guns.

Khornatedemon said...

Cause we all know those 6 bolter shots from a cursader are amazing when its immobilized right? Land raiders should be used for ushering assault troops to the enemy, else they are pointless. In the enemies face is where the redeemer shines. I've won games due to flamestorms. Something bolters or even the 2 lascannons on a standard raider wouldnt be able to have done.

Any assault transport is useless once its immobilized. Does that mean we shouldnt take them? No it doesnt. I've never had anything but good results in the months I've been using my redeemer. In the hands of a smart player that knows how to protect it from melta's its a beast.

Black Matt said...

How does turbo boosting bikes, 3+ cover save, make them vulnerable?

erfunk said...

I think when he says vulnerable, he's referring to them being visible. As opposed to Raptors ducking their heads behind the Rhino where they presumably can't be shot at. Though in my experience, if an opponent wants to they can usually still draw a bead on jump troops no matter well you hide them.

The_King_Elessar said...

Partly that, erfunk, but also in that 3 models, that aren't Fearless, aren't going to stand up to much shooting, 3+ Cover or no. I don't care if your 24" closer to my Bolters, thanks, and I wouldn't ignore your armour anyway. Weight of Fire will take em down as quickly, if not quicker, but they don't have the benefits of hiding. They also encourage the player to use them recklessly - due to their increased mobility.

There isn't much between them, but Raptors suit my play style better. Maybe it's playing Eldar so much...

Black Matt said...

That I can definetly agree with!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Ive been running Raptors since the new, well current, Chaos Codex has been out. There is not one game I have played them in that I would wish them replaced with any of the other options in the Dex from FA.

At least with my setup, they fit to well to use something else.