Rules Discussion #1 FNP vs. AP3


HI there folks! After talking with Black Matt I've decided to take some time away from the many Seiges I'm running against planets of The False Emperor in order to throw some ideas out there and see what you all think! Today I'd like to throw out a rules query for you all and see where you go with it. I'll hold my personal answer until after some of you have had a chance to post your thoughts! Today's question, "Do Plague Marines get Feel No Pain against AP3 weapons?" The rule for FnP can be found on page 75 of the BRB. The major part of this issue is how do you interpret the part "..and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken." Do you take this to mean, 'can never be taken for that model', or 'can never be taken by any model'? Please read the rule over and discuss away!
-Marius Xerxes

34 comments:

AutarchAndrew said...

yes they do plague marines do not get FNP against AP2&1 weapons and attacks that ignore armour saves and i think attack that are at least str 10

AutarchAndrew said...

so the thing to do with the plague marines is vindicator or 3 fire prisms contributing to make it ap2 str 7 it preaty much fucks them over (excuse my language)

Jonathan said...

Plague Marines DO NOT get FNP saves from AP3 weaponry.

woroxon said...

Since the FNP rule applies to the model, I think that WHEN a wound is assigned to the plague marine from an AP 3 weapon there could be 2 options the first one is that if its strength is below 10 (I'm using the higher T from the profile) then the FNP goes into effect so it can survive (the ST is just ignore so unsaved wound is applied), in the other case doesn't because it generates Instant Death.

Cijil001 said...

As the base toughness is 4, anything with S8 will ignore FNP. However in the odd event that it comes up, (AP3 bolters is one of the few) they do get FNP but not the armor save. The important distinction is the wording of
"..and any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken."
This refers directly to power weapons, monstrous creatures, and effects such as Wind of Chaos that say "allows no armour save."

AP on the other hand DOES allow armor saves, but there's a catch--the armor has to be lower than the number. That's the distinction that I make and everyone I've played agrees with it.

It's all interpretation of course, as there's no hard ruling.

SKeeM said...

Matt I have changed my position on this subject, you are right. The answer is yes because you are receiving a wound and rooling to see if you can ignore it.

AutarchAndrew said...

ya check the big book and yes you do

Mr. G said...

Where can I find this "big book" with the answers in it?

I WANT ONE!

Flekkzo said...

Plague Maries get a FnP "save" unless:

S8 and above (per insta death because of their T4(5) profile)
AP 1 or AP 2 (melta and lascannons, yummy)
Power weapons
Power Fists (why do they mention that again?)
CC Dread weapons (why this again?)
6s on Rending weapons
Dangerous Terrain
Playing against the Imperial Fists

The FnP isn't related to if you *can* make a save, so regardless if you got a save or not you can make a FnP roll. Unless the above holds true, then bye bye Plague Marine.

I find the such as rule to be fuzzy, but the AP 1 and AP 2 rule obviously holds them as special (it could have been included in the fuzzy rule) and thus AP 3 and higher gives you a FnP save.

Seems like everyone agrees here :)

The_King_Elessar said...

There is no question. Of course they do - AP3 weapons do not fulfil the 'ever' requirement in the rule.

Anyone who thinks that they do not should stop, think, pick up the Daemons Codex, and look at a Plaguebearer's Armour Save.

Anyone that adds 'by that model' is fail - you need to read words that are there, not ones you want to see.

AutarchAndrew said...

the big book is the rule book aka the great big book of everything with everything inside

Black Matt said...

does anyone have an example why Plague Marines do not get FNP against AP3 weapons. SOmething more than just an opinion

Angelic_Despot said...

Surely the gist of the argument is:

If you fire an AP3 weapon at an ork, it gets no save. At an eldar, it gets no save. At a marine, it gets no save. At a terminator, it _does_ get a save.

So it _is_ possible to get a save vs an AP3 weapon. It's not possible to get a save vs an AP1 or AP2 weapon (and the FNP rule explicitly states that a weapon with these AP values deny the use of the FNP ability).

While grammatically you could read it the other way, it's not the most obvious way of reading it. In addition to that, if the rule was meant to work the other way, the rule could have been written simply and clearly to state this.

I know GW is not famed for writing simple and clearly worded rules: what I'm saying is that unless we have a reason to doubt it, we should probably go with the most obvious reading of the rule.

Steven said...

Yeah,like The_King_Elessar stated it uses the word "ever."
This isn't a rules discussion it is a discussion of the definitions of words in the English language.
Since AP3 wounds can *sometimes* require armor saves then they do not fulfill the requirement of *ever*.

Flekkzo said...

I am intrigued why this is an issue. I've ran into several hard to judge rules or hard to understand rules, but this one felt pretty clear cut.

Is there any compelling argument out there at all for loosing FnP for AP3 weapons?

I wonder if anyone is confusing it with a re-roll. It's not after all. Also if someone somehow is confusing it with a save or extra save, as it is not.

Black Matt, any chance we could get the origin of this whole debacle? :)

Black Matt said...

Since I play Plague Marines, I have had Eldar players come at me a few time at tournaments and say they really didnt care what I had to say and that PM dont get feel no Pain. I wanted some convincing arguments and viewpoints outside of my own in case I was wrong!

Ash said...

This is really a non-issue, in the "Big Book" there is a list of examples in brackets following the disputed statement. It clearly lists examples that have the discription "no armor or Cover save" like on p50 of the "Big Book" under PotW. I would argue it like this. I always get an armor save but if the weapon has a low AP I automatically fail the save. Hence the reason they list AP1 & AP2 otherwise they would have only need to say "attacks that ignore armour saves" clearly GW thinks these are two different points.

Ash

Matthew said...

1.The rule follows the toughness of model in the armor more than the armor on the guy.
2.There is armor that can save AP3 (Terminator, Articifer etc.).The model just happens to not be wearing it.
The Rule States "wounds where no armor save can EVER be taken. The Key word is EVER. Ever means "in any way". Lets insert the definition into the rule. It becomes "wounds where no armor save can in any way be taken". The same marine in terminator armor or the like would be able to make an armor save. If the armor save fails the wound may be weakend just enough to be ignored. The marine is feeling no pain not the armor. Ditto for the regular armor or even scout armor AP4.

The real question is where is the line drawn where a "Feel No Pain" save is not going to ever work. The answer is given by GW. It is AP2 which has sufficient strength to penitrate terminator or artificer armor and Strength twice the toughness or greater. These are strong enough to vaporize infantry.

CrusherJoe said...

Just to throw in my 2 cents...

We had this discussion several months ago on our local Austin forum. The debate went on for a few pages, but in the end it was decided and agreed upon that "ever" is the key word, and since there are instances where can take an armor save vs. AP3 (negating the "ever" clause) you could take the FNP roll against AP3.

Looking back it was silly the debate went on as long as it did...but in Austin, we tend to discuss things to death. :)

The_King_Elessar said...

@Black Matt: Those players are wrong. I hesitate to say cheating...but, it's a misinterpretation of the rule, at best, and one that gives them a tangible advantage in game.

That said, Eldar have NO AP3 weaponry.

As I previously commented, see Codex:Daemons Plaguebearers for an example. They never get an Armour Save - so they would never get their FnP either.

Danny Internets said...

It's interesting how this argument only ever comes up with respect to Plague Marines. Has anyone ever heard someone try and argue that Nob bikers don't get FNP from AP4 weapons? I haven't.

Also, a while back it was popular to take Mad Doc Grotsnik with a mob of 30 Ork Boyz to get FNP. I don't recall any big debates over whether or not bolters denied FNP to them.

Danny Internets said...

Whoops, almost forgot the best example.

Plaguebearers don't have an armor save. Therefore, if you believe that AP3 denies FNP to Plague Marines then Plaguebearers should never be able to take a FNP roll ever. Which is ridiculous.

Magilla Gurilla said...

The joys of fuzzy rules....

The rule for Feel No Pain states that you do not get the roll against attacks that are AP1 or AP2...in my opinion this should be the end of the story.

However, there is a clause at the end of the FNP universal rules that says: "any other wound against which no armour save can ever be taken."

While I know that people would like to twist this rule to fit their needs, this section was included to clarify attacks like Rending Weapons and Perils of the Warp.....NOT SHOOTING ATTACKS WHICH ARE COVERED IN THE AP1 AND AP2 RULING!!!

You can sometimes makes saves against AP 3 weapons, therefore this class of weapons doesn't fit the clause.

Just one more example of fuzzy rules - this one annoys me as much as people using fortune and then turbo boosting with a Seer Council on Jetbikes.....

Black Matt said...

@ the King Elessar Starcannnons are AP3

Black Matt said...

whoops no there not, they are AP2. The Ap 3 came from Prince Yriel's eye piece!

The_King_Elessar said...

@Danny internets: lol, ninja'd you twice with that point.

@Black Matt: lol, It took me ages to get used to that too. Somehow I forgot Yriel's Eye, though I'd class it as an ability, (rather than weapon) just so I wasn't wrong ;)

Danny Internets said...

Bah!

Xadhoom said...

@The_King_Elessar: Krak missiles are AP3, even for the Eldar.

In this context, it doesn't really matter, because it's strength is enough to counter the FNP.

The_King_Elessar said...

Ah Nuts.

eriochrome said...

Yes they can take the FNP save against AP3. That sentence has nothing to do with AP it has to since AP 1 and 2 I believe are already specifically mentioned. It has to do with the more exotic things in the codex or rule book that just essentially remove the model etc. Also things like failed dangerous terrain tests and perils of the warp.

Marius Xerxes said...

Well im glad to hear and see some discuussion on this!

I agree with the interpretation that they DO get FnP against AP3 weapons.

However as Devils advocate; when people use the word "ever", they apply it to the model that has said USR. Plauge Marines wont "ever" get a armour save against AP3 wounds. This is the basis of the argument that has been brought up on several occasions outside of what Matt mentioned in his personal experiance.

To further on that, the list of weapon types given as example after the "ever" statement in the USR have no where stated or implied that the list given is totally inclusive. They are examples given but not said to be the only types to be considered for the definition of "ever".

So when you break it down, the interpretation can be seen in the other light.

I like to bring forward the other side of arguments, even when they arent the popular one because understanding where your opponent is coming from is key to resolving the issue over the table without sacrificing time and enjoyment of the game. And in the games that have it, a sportsmenship score!

Dezartfox said...

Course they do.
It's like saying Orks with a Painboy dont get a FNP roll because boltguns ignore their armour..

Marius Xerxes said...

Exactly. Those are the kindof scenerios you have to bring up to people (along with deamons) to show them how their reading is incorrect.

Though even then some will say the benifit is more for basic HtH attacks and not shooting.

Truly, you can never please everyone lol.

TrangleC said...

Indeed. If the armour of the model would be the criteria, Nurgle daemons would never get FNP because they have no armour at all. That makes it pretty obvious that AP3 does not negate FNP.