Sportsmanship scores = revenge?

Guys, due to my busy week I didnt get to put the effort into this post that I wanted to. I know a lot of people like text but I just didnt have time. give the video a quick watch and let me know what ya think about the questions I pose!


Fritz said...

Bro, you got tanked by the eldar player for asking him to use flying bases on his multiple wave serpents and fire prisms. He spazzed at this, I'd LOVE to not have to use flying bases.

As for the questions? Who can say, if dudes are honest it keeps the game civil, but if they are dishonest then there is no way to stop abuse.

eriochrome said...

Generally the events I attend have a seperate sportsmanship catagory and it is not part of the battle points. Painting is also a different catagory.

I prefer to get a list of check marks and descriptions to assign sportsmanship that way you know what the organizer is looking for and not just pick any number from 0 to 10 (or 12). That way I know whether comp score is part of it or not. If you bring a unit spammed list like you have in your columns I would drop you the point on the checklist if it was their. I do not use it to take revenge for getting my butt handed to me. People do not need killer lists to do that.

I think the last time we did not even fill out anything, the host just went around and watched the games and talked to people to give out the award. They are pretty small events with 10-12 players so this can work fine.

Jwolf said...

Many people act badly about sportsmanship scores. Sportsmanship is one of the things that players have to grade, too, so there isn't an easy way to deal with the issue.

What we're trying for BoLSCon is sportsmanship that is almost flat, with room for great games and terrible games, and a judge will talk to the participants about great or terrible game ratings.

I do think sportsmanship scoring has to be a part of the game, but I haven't figured out how to make revenge sportsmanship scoring cost the person doing it and not the person receiving the bogus scores.

Not being at your event, I can't say you got dinged unfairly, but I can certainly feel for you. And you illustrate one of the tricks bad players use to gain modelling advantages - putting Eldar skimmers out without bases is not kosher, but some people won't call him on it for fear of getting a bad sportsmanship call.

Magilla Gurilla said...

Due to the issues with sportsmanship scores, the two Friendly Local Gaming Stores near me have handled this in very different ways:

(1)The FLGS closest to me has completely gotten rid of sportsmanship scores in its tournaments. They got tired of people or groups of people using the sportsmanship scores as another weapon to try and place first. If someone gets out of hand, they are refunded their money and told to take a walk!

(2) The other FLGS has made up a detailed chart that is used to calculate sportsmanship scores. Example: Did opponent show up on time: 1 pt; did opponent explain any questions you had about his army: 1pt: etc, etc, etc. This was done because people were using sportsmanship to ding people for bringing solid competitive lists.

As for trading scores, I think this is a bit odd. I think you should use a detailed sportsmanship chart, and after the game, they should be turned into the game organizers. At FLGS number 2, if someone is given a low score, you have to give an explanation and reason for giving them the low score….to prevent cheaters!

Docrailgun said...

Sportsmanship scores in tournaments are fairly useless in any game system. Players tend to either give the max score, or a crappy score. This makes the high-to-middle scores given by players who take the scores seriously not worth much, as the lazy players inflate other peoples' scores (on purpose or accidently).

I ran Mechwarrior and Heroclix for Wizkids for years (we had the number 1-ranked Mechwarrior player at my main game store), and it was true in those tournaments. I used sportsmanship as a tiebreaker, and I saw thousands of people either score their opponents a 10 if they had fun or something really low (if they lost, or were playing the #1 player in an attempt to make him lose the tournament)... no matter if the opponent was a good sport or not (at least in my opinion). There were very few 5-8 scores, mostly 10s or 3s.

I was lucky as a referee for Mechwarrior... I could keep an eye on 3-5 games at the same time since the play area was small. 40K refs can't so that very easily.

Ace_Blitzkrieg said...

At the tournaments I attend we do not do sportsmanship. However I really wish that we would.

If it is factored into the overall ranking then people would play a little bit nicer. But also it would possibly stop the one guy from bringing his unstoppable NIDZILLA list. (or none the less not making him come in first)

But then your going to run into a couple of issues with that. MATURITY! Now if I was to be beaten by your lash list, and it was just a beating, because you were tactically great or the dice just favored you and you were not a cocky SOB about it. Then it would be alright, I can take a loss, but I can not take a loss from an arrogant person (the nidzilla player). This is not a PC game so rules can be mixed up sometimes, if you were to mess up on a ruling, call someone over, that should not be decided on your sportsmanship ranking.

I honestly believe it should be something private, because at the end of the game you should know what your score should be. If its no then just kindly shake their hand and say sorry about your loss.

It all boils down to how mature you and your opponent want to be. I h ave played with a very immature opponent who just would not stop rule checking me every turn! (The don't get a cover save they are not in cover, no your guys are 2" behind cover I get a cover save.) Not trying to rant but I just think their has to be a better way to rate how your opponent did against you...


jawaballs said...

We have to remember a few things about sportsmanship.

Enforcing rules is not poor sportsmanship, especially if your opponent conveniently and repeatedly forgets, abuses or improperly uses them. The 2" cover save that was mentioned earlier is a good example. No one enforces that infantry in area terrain, shooting through more then 2" of it, grant cover saves to their targets... but thems the rules! Is it poor sportsmanship to continually point that out? Hell no and frankly the guy that keeps trying to get away with it needs a sportsmanship refresher himself.

Having said that, argueing about and interpreting rules during a game is NOT good sportsmanship. Bring up your point. It is 100% ok to open the rule book and look up something. If your opponent argues, role a die, and it is not poor sportsmanship to let a judge decide. Thats what judges are for!

Also, it is not right to tank some one just because they brought a killer list. Tournaments are meant to be won. You don't enter a tournament for the sake of the casual game... that is what pickup games are for at the club. Just because you chose to limit yourself due to some fluffy morality, it is not right to punish a guy for bringing a legal but cheezy army. USA Basketball sent kids to the olympics for years because they were trying to be 'fair' (good sports). Then Team USA lost, and lost again, and yet again. Uhoh... what now? We didn't bitch... we sent the Dream Team! Was that poor sportsmanship?

In other words, if you can, do...but dont cry about it if you choose not to.

Of course if the tournament measures comp points, you are free to nail him! If you are some one who is bothered by guys playing cheeze lists when you choose not to... dont play at tournaments that do not have comp point scores. I hate playing double ork warboss nob bikers, but would not tank the guy for it. That is GWs fault.

I think that sportsmanship should be a minor part of the tournament and should be measured by a rubric such as that used by GW at the last Grand Tournament. Guys who don't care are still going to be douchebags. But at least they cannot punish you.

Nagamo said...

If you ask me, sportsmanship has no real place in competive gaming aka tournaments. A lot of arguments have already been mentioned, so let´s make an analogy: If sportsmanship would be a factor in real sports like basketball or soccer, some top teams won´t be on top off the league. Sure, abuse has to be sanctioned, but not by affecting the overall scoring. Seperate rating for winning games, painting and sportmanship, that are not summed up to a total value, are the way to go, I think...

Angelic_Despot said...

Regarding the issue of voting in private; how about telling your opponent at the start of the game that it's what you intend to do? Explain why, but it won't seem like you've sprung it on him at the end. As long as you're a good sport during the game, chances are he'll trust the reasons you gave him at the beginning. If you wait until the end, they might feel 'played' by you.

I think it would be good for there to be checklist help for awarding scores (1 point for being friendly, 1 point for x,y,z etc) so that everyone's scores will be based on the same criteria. There should be some relatively open points available though, or it will be easy for unscrupulous players to do everything according to the list, rather than playing in the spirit of 'being a good sport'.

I'm the kind of player that doesn't mind losing at all, but would like to punish opponents for bringing 2 warbosses and 20 nob bikers (and I play orks) and calling it an army, but I do agree that in a tournament where the aim is to bring a hard list, it's not really fair to penalize players for doing just that.

Anonymous said...

Sportmanship score
I just watched your video about sportmanship scores and thought I would vote my opinion :)
First of all, I haven't been to a tournament, just so you know it, but Sportmanship is so simple, though it really isnt, that I understand the thing about it :P
Firstly, people are all different. Some people will be trading 12s, and some think it's wrong and give a realistic score, and some use it, as you pointed out, as revenge.
Based on this, sportmanship isn't really that a good idea, though the idea is very good! Cause there will always be people out there abusing it.......
Myself, I would just give a realistic score to my opponent, and let him decide what to give me. But if he tanked me on them, I would be kinda angry at him, as it's both childish and, as I look at it, cheating.
I think it is up to everyone what they think, if your gamingclub can, and I believe it can, have a realistic and friendly sportmanship system, then go for it, but if not, there isn't really any good reason it should be there.
Don't get me wrong, I would wish nothing more than sportmanship being all over the place ^^
But people will always be abusing it, and that just leads to broken scores and tradeoffs...

That's my opinion, and you may not agree, but you asked for it so there it is. Good gaming! :)

Anonymous said...

Sportmanship as means of scoring for a tourny... Eh I just don't see it as being practical for two major reasons which have more then likely been stated above .

1) It comes down to a matter of personal opinion , most importantly the opinion of OTHER people on you . to which i quote the famous saying "Hell is other people". Along with another quote "Maturity sets in after your dead" You could be the niciest person in the world but if you play what would be considered a "Powered" or "broken " list despite it being a competing atmosphere they will still dock you or give your crap points because of what they dont view as fair.

2) Sportmanship has no tactical value in a game all about tactics and strategy. Now im not saying you should get away with being a jerk but I mean place yourself as though you where a commander or a real army who objective is to "Crush your enemys, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of the women " would you take pause and consider sportmanship in your tactics? of course not you would use any under handed tactic you could (also not condoning cheating just giving an example).

In short sportmanship should be observed at all times but to use it as a means of scoring a game in which rewards ,titles etc. is being given out is just kinda silly

HuronBH said...

Personally I think Sportsmanship is an important part of the tournament environment and that my local events to not have it count nearly enough. Usually around here it is either 3/1/0 or 5/3/0 for sports score. You better believe I am going to dock you sport score if a)I did not enjoy my game because of your list or a caught you cheating, b)Your attitude was poor and you argued every rule over and over, or c)You did not know your rules and I had to play your army for you.

Also, it is no business of your opponent to watch as you mark down their sports score, that is how you felt about the game and their input should not come into it. Maybe a bad sport who lose a few tournaments because of his bad sport score might get the drift and clean up their acts... Or, maybe I am giving some of them too much credit, but I should also be able to reward someone for bring a fun and challenging army to play against and who also had the right attitude.

I should not have to rate you on how you played in a game we are all playing to have fun with, but it is the world we live in.

Anonymous said...

Not sure how to look at this I guess it depends on how you view the purpose of a tournament. If the purpose is to determine the best player/ army on that day (from a power standpoint) then sportsmanship has nothing to do with it. I have never actually been to a tourney yet having just started the hobby. However, having been to other gaming/sporting tourneys, I don't see where having a broken list is something to be penalized. Having played say magic the gathering the tourney winners almost always have what would be considered a broken list and sports tourney winners most often have the best (broken) team. Should we dock them points for having the best team?
That said, I think that a rubric would be best and the tourney organizers should have very specific points to grade your opponent on concerning their demeanor, and following the rules. Also, this should maybe be a separate award for sportsmanship rather than part of the outcome.

Anonymous said...

Hey there. being the Guy to give you a 7 on the first round, it was for the following parts of the rubric. Being a teacher I follow Rubrics at all times.

You guys took 20 minutes to set up... and each of your turns took forever... on average our turns were done in 10 minutes. The Rubric provided by toywiz said 3pts, yes or no did your opponents play at a decent pace. My friend Said no, so we went with that. Neither army was WYSIWYG so neither, your team or ours should have received that point. The final point on the rubric that you guys lost for us was theme. We couldn't see a theme present. We filled the rubric out completely. As far as us deserving a worse score, according to the rubric, I don't think it was possible.

In response to your post. If you follow the rubric and fill it out honestly, then it is not revenge. Filling it out dishonestly is just cheating.